I actually like this idea (from a previous thread). What do you former BK Alum find different about your Catholic childhood compared to you now as an adult. Are you more/less tolerant of the teachings of the church? Are you still active in the Catholic church? How do you feel on the recent actions of the church?
I started this thread as a discussion only. Let's make a rule. NO NAMES! It is not meant to alienate anyone only serve as a discussion. Post your name if you want but I prefer if you don't.
Too "exclusive". Frustrated when my parents (both raised Catholic and still practice) embarrassed me by criticizing my wife (Lutheran) openly when she received communion at a Catholic service we all attended. What business is it of anyone else who decides to walk up and receive communion? It is ultimately between the individual and God. What frustrated me more was the different answer I received from each of my parents to the question "Is the bread and wine actually, physically the body and blood of Christ OR are they merely symbols representing the body and blood?". The Catholic answer to this question is the cornerstone of the Catholic church and the primary difference between the Catholic and the Lutheran church. What is your answer? I know what I believe. Anyway, I now go to a Lutheran church with my wife and ANYONE is welcome to receive communion - not just those who have "gone to the class". I lean toward this approach.
I guess I should say that what I have typed is simply a small window into my thoughts on this issue and the whole "being raised Catholic" issue. I will have more to say - not just to say it but more so to see comments from others. I will remain anonymous per the earlier request, but will identify myself as "22".
I completely see your frustration at the criticism of your wife. Personally - I Think that sometimes we focus so much on the rules that we miss the real importance of the act. But- and I think this is really the thing I am more confused by - why in the world - if your wife believes that it is only a symbol - would she ever want to go to communion at a Catholic church? I am so blown away by people who say "I do not believe what you do - but I sure as hell want to partake in what your church views as the most sacred sacrament." It's one thing for people who just don't understand - but it sounds like your wife and you do. I applaud your decision to find a church that more fully speaks to what you believe - but why the desire to perticipate in something you DO NOT believe in?
I understand your argument. However, is it better to partake in communion when you have absolutely no idea of what is happening or strong conviction about it OR to partake in communion when you have a belief but it just may not be exactly what the Church you are receiving it in says you should believe. After all, there are many things The Catholic Church says it's members should believe in, but many (or in some cases - most) do not believe. There are many, many Catholics who understand the bread and wine are meant to physically change but inwardly don't believe it and still receive Communion. I, personally, don't see the problem with someone having his /her own understanding of Communion and receiving it in any venue - and it is between that individual and God.
You, the Catholic, are hiking deep in the forest with your friend, the Protestant and your friend is fatally injured. He asks you to "break bread" with him so he can receive communion again before he dies and he also asks you to listen to his request for forgiveness for his sins. What would you do? Deny him or help him with these things? I would say help him and, in my opinion, God would "recognize" the request for forgiveness and the receipt and provision of communion. Of course, in the end, none of us really know - it is all up to Him.
I couldn't agree with you more. ANd, I think I had mentioned above that I, personally, don't see the point in getting all worked up about who is or isn't going to communion. I agree 100% - it is between you and God and, my guess is, God could care less. But you still didn't answer my question - why would you WANT to receieve something - which implies a certain belief- when you don't hold that belief? It is the only part I don't get. I personally choose to "hang back". I have no desire to receive a sacrament that I do not believe in fully. I wouldn't want to lessen or cheapen that sacrament for those who would view my casual acceptance as just that - and I also choose to be true to what I do and do not believe. So I participate in places that hold the beliefs that I do. One last point, I may be wrong but I do not think that you must believe all the tenets of the Catholic church to receive communion. I think a belief that it has actually changed into body and blood,however, is paramount. Am I incorrect?
Your question only needs to be answered if the person walking up to receive communion thinks in his/her head "I am going up here to receive communion as the Catholics believe even though I don't believe what that Catholics believe". My wife received communion with the belief that the bread and the wine are symbols of Jesus' body and blood, that receipt of these helps to strengthen our spirit and cleanse our soul. I don't take communion lightly and neither does my wife (and I don't think you were implying that). So, I do not see the problem. However, I think many people on any given Sunday walk up to receive communion while in a daze - with no real awareness of what is happening - and that is not for me to stand up and say "hey, you are not paying attention and therefore should not be receiving communion and I take personal offense to your participation". As to your final question - yes, the Catholic church states that belief is paramout. Problem is, many Catholics who receive communion are aware of that "requirement", don't actually believe it, and still walk on up. So, I don't understand why it is "wrong" for another person, who holds the same belief that the items are symbols, should be held to the flame for participating.
In addition, it must be difficult for a person from a Protestant church where anyone is welcome to receive communion to go to a Catholic church and be turned away because s/he is not in the club. It is the body and blood of Christ! We all believe that! Some in both camps see it as an actual physical change and some in both camps see it as symbolic. So why the big deal?
I was raised Catholic but am definitely no longer one. However, some members of the family are, so on occasion, I have attended church. On one such occasion, I brought along a teenager who had not been raised in any church. As the priest walked by with a bowl of hosts, she proclaimed, "Oh look! They have chips!"
I suppose I should send this story into Reader's Digest, but I thought it might lighten this thread. To each his own, I say. Some people just see it as a chip. Does that make them bad? I think not.
I have chosen the path of no organized religion where all are welcome. Guess that makes me a pagan, but I'm not going to argue either one of your beliefs because they work for you.
Having attended Catholic school for 12 years, I would like to think that I'm a little educated on the Catholic religion. When I was young, the hierarchy taught us that everyone was good and we should be good to each other. Then as the education progressed and I became older and more aware, I realized that the Catholic religion was not the picture of love and inclusion I had been given earlier. I realized this soon enough to not be "confirmed". I discovered, in fact, many people were actually excluded from this religion.
I could honestly bash the Catholic church for many, many, many, many of its beliefs. However, what would be the point? I simply choose to no longer be a part of it.
Thanks for your story. I brought a non-Catholic friend to church while I was attending St Mary's Elementary in Boise. When the collection basket was passed around and came to him, he took money out of the basket as he thought the church was handing out money to those who attended. Of course, we "caught" him and had him put the money back.
I do hope it is understood that I am not trying to "bash" the Catholic church, I am just trying to explain my point of view and how it affects what I decide to do. The Catholic church does many, many good things - I work for a Catholic institution - Catholic Health Initiatives - I see these things all the time. I, too, could "go off" on the CC, but, as you said, what would be the point.
I will say that I went to church service more times as a youth....every Sunday, every Holy Day, the day of every basketball and football game (at BK), every student body mass (at BK), every class mass (St Mary's) - no wonder I hardly attended mass between leaving home for college and getting married 11 years later.
I had some doubts about how interesting this thread would be, but am pleasantly surprised to see the focus quickly shift to complex topics like the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
Despite 8 years of CCD/RE/whatever and 4 years at BK, I spent the first 37 years of my life not fully understanding transubstantiation. It wasn't until I married someone who had left the Church at 15 years earlier and had no intention of returning that I finally learned what it meant. In searching for a spiritual home for our new family, we both started looking critically at the tenets of Catholicism that we either didn't grasp or had outright rejected. The journey led us back the Catholic Church as knowledge led to faith. My newly-confirmed wife is now a RE teacher, and I am an EM in our parish.
On the Sundays that I serve, I am fully aware that there are people who come up to me in line without sharing my belief that Holy Communion isn't merely a symbol. However, as has been pointed out in every training session I've attended, I cannot know what is in the recipient's heart at that moment, so I cannot and should not doubt him or her.
One other theme that I notice frequently in conversation with others and in this thread is the idea that the Church isn't considerate of individuals and their needs or beliefs, whether it be in regards to Communion, divorce, birth control, etc. I can't argue the point because I think there are many who forget that Jesus established the Church to serve Him, not everyone else. But, don't you just want to thank God everyday for the free will that allows you to either accept or reject the Church and its teachings?
I thought it was interesting hearing last night's sermon at Christ the King in Idaho Falls. According to Father Calab, the largest organized religion in the US is Roman Catholic at 47 million believers. The second largest group is non-practicing Catholics at 17 million.
The Idaho Falls Catholic Community is holding a new series of classes for non-practicing Catholics intended to explore the reasons they have left the Church.
I would invite each of you to check with your local parish and see what's new in the Church. I know my faith has carried me through many storms and has been especially revitalized as I watch my children prepare for Confirmation - They get to make the choice. You can as well.
This is a wonderful discussion! I'm sending my child to Catholic school despite the many, many issues I have with the Church. Nearly every "social" position the church has a stance on - birth control, remarriage after divorce without an annulment, men-only priesthood, no credence to a married priesthood, not to mention the current "witch hunt" of gay seminarians - I stand squarely on the opposite side of the Church. And yet, the "social justice" issues that the Church has championed are so fundamentally right. I'm not sure which Pope (maybe Pius?) it was who said, "If you want peace, work for justice." This is my hope in sending my child to Catholic school - that in spite of a lot of hurtful decisions the Church (just like humans) makes, at the heart of it, we are taught to be good to one another and to put love first and foremost. No public school in my particular community could even come close to instilling that level of respect for another in the school children - they're too busy fighting to keep their funding going with ridiculous standardized testing courtesy of "No Child Left Behind." Meanwhile, my second grader has activist nuns teaching him Spanish, 22 kids out of 26 in his class put on their own version of "Narnia" for the teacher and other four kids last week, and he has never felt left out of anything in his three years there. I believe he's having a sensational educational experience, and this school has the scores to back it up. All 28 kids in his 1st grade class were reading at grade level or above at the end of his 1st grade year - there's no way the public schools here could even come close to that. Some may claiim that this is a select demographic, but I've been to his weekly school masses - this school really enables kids to listen to and learn from the gospel. I'm learning to live with my ongoing ambivalence about a lot of what the church teaches. I never realized that experiencing a school environment that fosters such love and acceptance would restore my faith in what I believe is right with the Church.
this is fascinating, I've had the opportunity to attend about a dozen different church/faith services, went to BK, SH before that.... married into another faith etc.
what is fascinating throughout the world is that the higher the level of education, the less that society is prone to religious tradition.
God, as an entity, is really no longer considered a being, it is rather a structure of moral behaviors that we now understand are practically identical from religion to religion: treat others as you want to be treated, value your family, work to do what is right etc.
So God does in fact exist, in that God in all his forms and names is really the only way to educate the less-educated societies about how to exist in peace and make the world better. Without God of some kind, people are what evolution claims, which is basically an animal with opposable thumbs, killing, eating, sleeping, not working for the common good.
Where the agnostics fell short is that they could not understand that God does not have to be a being, God can be a critical concept, like freedom or democracy or peace. God is a tool by which we bring the un-civilized along the evolutionary path.
Being Catholic, or Muslim, or Mormom means nothing. In every church there are wonderful tolerant people doing their best for society. And there are also in that church fervent radicals, pedophiles, adulterers and those who want to twist certain passages or rites to build themselves up and beat others down.
But God, whether you are a Catholic or not, is necessary--it is more necessary than almost anything other than food, water, shelter--
--and honestly, if he or she really were a being, he would want his kids to grow up to be able to subsist without his constant presence (like we do with our kids), and he would not in any way be such an egotist that he would ever want to be worshipped and kissed up to and have people grovel. Think, if you were that being, would you really want your friends or kids on their knees? No, of course not, you'd put an arm around them and tell them to stop kissing up.
In the end, God is in fact Great, the greatest creation in the history of the Universe.
I was brought up in a catholic family.I am not catholic any more I was for a while Luthran.I liked being catholc when I was young but do to some issues I am not anymore. Here is what happened to me.I was rapped.not by a perist.My sister my oldest sister got mariied in the cathoic church.many years ago.We all thought he was a nice guy he was from a good catholic famiy.He started in on me when I was 13 I finally told when I was 15.No one belived me.I was not the only one he was doing this too.My sister devorced him not because of me but because he got the babysitter pergnant.I think she was 13 or 14 at the time.He was outseted by the church for a while.A few years later he got married to the babysitter in the catholic church.He was allowed back in to the church I on the other hand was seen as the problem.Some how it became my fault.I will not apoligize to the church or him.He admitted to the priest and to his family that he did this to me but because he married the babysitter.I am wrong.He still goes to church from what I know.I gave up on religion.I do belive in god.I just can't stomack what was done to me and the people who say they go to church everday and think that will get them to heaven no matter what they do to other people. I would like to someday got back to the catholic church but I can't right know because they have let him back in. I know in my haert that know matter how many time he goes and does good things he will never get to heaven because he blames me and has not taken responsiblity for what he did to to me. I forgave him along time ago but I will never forget.God remebers too.His family knows and so does the church.They may all put them blame on me and all his other victums.But god know the truth.I do tell this story because it needs to be told.I am not a vengful person.But because these stories are out thier and not to be in hiding.
if so many of you disagree with the Church, it's teachings and "rules", then get out. the lack of respect is obvious. there are literally hundreds of protestant churches to choose from, go join one of those. let those of us who do respect the Church "deal with the teachings" instead of you all trying to change a 2000 year old institution. some of us like it just the way it is.
Perhaps the intolerance shown by the previous poster to this particular thread is why so many people have difficulty with Catholicism. WE are the Body of Christ, made manifest in the Eucharist - not the rules and regulations of a 2000 year old institution.
I was born, baptized and raised Catholic, in that order. There was no choice, no options and no explanations of things beyond my comprehension. CCD classes were mandatory for anyone in public school, but most often these "Religion for public school kids" taught very little of what the Bible had to say, but oh so very much the Catholic interpretation of the Bible. I left the Catholic church 20 years ago, as I had serious questions regarding the teachings of the church verses what the Bible said. I was always told to go talk to a Priest, who generally told me the reason I didn't understand was because I didn't have enough faith. Hogwash! I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and in God the Father. In the Bible, baptism is clearly taught in the New Testament by Jesus himself as an outward display of your inward decision to follow Christ, not a "mandatory" ritual to become a member of a church. You should be able to choose whatever church you feel comfortable in, but if you decide not to be a member of a certain religion, you should not be guilted into thinking you are going to hell as the Catholic church teaches. I have had this discussion with my mother who is a devout Catholic, and she didn't understand, so the question was asked: What does the Catholic church mean when they say if you don't belong to their church you will not go to heaven? Simple enough answer folks, but clearly not biblical. Salvation thru Jesus Christ is the only way into Heaven. Submitting yourselves to God and surrenduring your control to Jesus Christ, being 'Saved' if you want to coin the phrase, is the biblical teaching of how one enters the kingdom of heaven. I have been studying the bible for 20+ years outside the confines of the Catholic church, and have found that no where in the bible does it mention the word "Catholic". The Church, as it is referred to in the New Testament is actually the body of believers, in whatever religious format they choose to align themselves. The first 'Pope' of the Catholic Church, who was Peter, was a married Jewish man. And to go even further, when God said he was going 'Build the church on this rock', He was most definitely NOT talking about a man, but of his son Jesus Christ. Why in the world don't more followers of the Catholic church question this kind of thing instead of blindly following what they are being taught BY MEN? God the Father and Jesus Chris are who we should be taking our instruction from, and whoever fills the pulpit of the church you attend should be studying scripture with the Holy Spirit's leading, and not by the confines of a religious theology. I have found that religion can be a total waste of time, as it draws ones attention away from worshipping and serving God and is very much a man made institution whose rules and laws often contradict the Bible, the very book in which most religions say they base their theology on. I'm sure there will be postings vehemently disagreeing with my position, but isn't that what this whole discussion is for? In the bible God tells us to question Him, to ask questions and to yell at Him when we are frustrated. He loves it when we don't understand, give Him our grievances, and then He can lovingly show us His path for our life. Interestingly enough, that path has nothing to do with following a religion, but everything to do with a life of service to Himself and his son Jesus Christ. Just some things to think of the next time you have a question about why your "religion" can't answer your questions about the bible. Is it because they are using more man made rules than God's rules?
I believe NO, that the church may be a convenient place for all to gather, but I practice my religion with in myself.
So, this means I do not go to communion, I do not go to obtain forgiveness for my sins. I like to think that I am cutting out the middleman and going directly to the source.
I know it sounds like I am being sarcastic...I am sincere in my religious beliefs and I believe them to be the Catholic teachings of the lord.
No, you're not misguided - you're following your conscience.
However, the Catholic Church, if one reads its Catechism, would say that technically, one does have to attend Mass to be Catholic, along with participating in a host of other things ritually and sacramentally to be considered Catholic.
I, like you (the poster to the thread above), do not attend Mass, do not go to confession, and most of all, do not agree with many teachings that are in the Catechism.
And yet, my 17 years of Catholic schooling (kindergarten through college) combined with my early in life mass attendance definitely informs the way in which I live. This is why I consider myself to be Catholic, just not one in current mass attendance.
The way in which I make decisions, the lifestyle I've chosen for myself, the caregiving profession in which I work, the ethic with which I treat others - these are all based upon a moral reasoning that speaks to respect for the dignity of each person - an incredible blessing my "faith" gave me early on in life, despite the ways I've seen the Church abuse some of these very principles as I have aged and seen more of the world.
So, I believe it is still possible to live a Catholic life without the trappings of Catholicism. Again, theologians and the Catechism would dispute this, but I believe otherwise.
I thought I was the only one who held this belief.
I continue to tell myself, I am more catholic than the catholic church.
I do believe that my actions, beliefs, morals are the correct actions of a true catholic. The church does not represent me.....I represent the church.
Example: Don't tell me about the downfall of the catholic church and their actions in the past, look at me as an example of what a true catholic looks like. Don't condem the church for the pedaphiles....condem the people who do the actions and the ones who cover them up.
I believe that the catholic church is misrepresenting not only the faith but me as well.
wow, I've read the messages left since my "Dissenting Viewpoint", and it's nice to know that others with a Catholic upbringing besides myself and others I personally know have a similar viewpoint. Thanks for making your thoughts known!
This is probably the most interesting thread that I have followed on the boards in several years. I'm viewing it as someone who was baptized and raised Episcopal, attended Roman Catholic school for several years (St. Joes + 4 at BK), was married in a Baptist church and now practice Christianity as a Presbyterian.
While I was not a member of your church, I was grateful to always be welcome at BK, and I value the friendships that I developed there. The priests, nuns and lay people were always accepting of my faith, and were never pushy about converting me. That part was nice.
It constantly amazes me how much "liberty" the leadership of the Roman Catholic church has taken over the centuries. There are so many ways that the true tenets of Christian belief and fellowship have been twisted for the promotion of a central, powerful organization.
As an Episcopal, it was pretty standard doctrine to point out the failings of the Roman Catholic church (throwing stones, if you will). While I still agree with the points of the doctrine, I think that the Episcopal church may have been a little harsh at it. As I recall, most of the questioned practices were declared to be "an abomination in the sight of God." Essentially, anything which had no foundation in scripture (canonization of saints, praying to Mary, confession of sins to a Priest, etc.) fell into this category. If one takes the time to really, honestly examine the roots of these elements of the Roman Catholic faith, they're not about salvation. What they are about is creating and maintaining a strong central power base, and having some physical manifestation of mystic doctrine. The Roman Catholic church needed things like the bones of saints to draw people into their local temple, or sacraments requiring an ordained priest to perform. If the local population in large areas were to believe that they could have salvation through simple faith, the Papal power base would have crumbled.
It amuses me that the members of the Roman Catholic church almost universally take the term "Catholic" as their own. In truth, Catholic is derived from an ancient Greek work for universal or general. In other Christian denominations, we also pledge our belief in the one true Catholic church, but it has nothing to do with what's happening at the Vatican.
In the end, salvation will no be found in any text, attending Mass, taking communion, last rites, or praying to saints. Salvation is singularly found in belief in Jesus Christ, risen Son of God.
Thank you for sharing your story & I am sorry that you have been betrayed. I sincerely hope that you have a good support group and are able to seek counseling. There are many steps to healing & I hope you will get there.
Your beliefs are personal (and true). Salvation comes in many forms. Their distince common ground is that it is solely between you and the god you worship.
I personall think religion gets a "free pass" way too often. I appreciate the checks and balences from people like you. This keeps the world from becoming sheep.
Keep posting, because I like to hear ALL thoughts.
I have read a lot of these statements about the Catholic Church. Some of them were just amazing to me. First, I am Catholic and working on being devout (I know, I know, what does that mean? I'm working on it). I know that perfection will never be part of my thoughts. Even how I view God is only my thoughts, and it is not perfect. I know that I will never be able to reach perfect love, but I adore God who is defined as such. Let me make this clear to everyone, I pray to God with the understanding of perfect love. The Saints are nothing more than mere examples of God's love. Catholics do not pray to them, we pray through them by the many examples they have given us. Ask yourself how many times you ask others for help during your times of need. Did anyone question you why you ask that particular person for help, probably not. There are exceptions. Well that is why I pray through the Saints and Mary (there is a lot I can say about Mary), for their help. I honor their sacrifices to God, their willingness to give up their lives and dedicate themselves to God. I don't know too many people in my life that have done that. I guess you could say, its good to know they are there for us. I use to get upset with people who would challenge me as a Catholic, but then I realized they are challenging me based on their own beliefs. Impossible to dispute. They have defined truth in their own minds, their imperfect minds. Like I said I adore God, nothing else. He is my truth. The Catholic Church, as far as I know (in MY imperfect definition), defines the gifts that God has given each one of us. Those gifts are precious and perfect. Please don't ask me why, I can't define God's perfect Love, I just believe it to be true. I do not dedicate my life to God, but its nice to know that I can. I try not to judge others, but its nice to know that i can. I guess what I'm saying, is that truth is defined within. Absolute truth is devine, no one can define it.
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October 18, 2008 11:29 AM
I'm the one who wrote September 30th. I just read the message about what God looks like. I wish I could define that question alone. My only or many answers would only fall short of the truth, and possibly wrong. To me, I don't define God's looks as something to see, but rather feel. I'm sure there are many of us who have felt God's presence, or what we like to believe as his presence. A pure feeling of allowing Him complete control. To bad it doesn't last long. Have you ever seen something so beautiful you couldn't say the words that perfected your thoughts or feelings? Would you be able have as much passion or write the same thoughts if you saw the same beautiful thing over and over? How can I define something so beautiful? How can I descibe God's perfect looks? Can mere words decribe such beauty? Maybe I, we should be more interested in listening to what He is telling us about what he looks like, rather than us telling others what He looks like. Just a thought. I hope a didn't offend anyone.
