Throwing 40 billion dollars at a problematic and nebuious enemy will be bad. Support of Bush Jr's "whatever means necessary" distorts political discourse. It will probably lead to his missile defense and ill-fated economic policy, which makes no sense.

The fact that millions of people have died as a result of distorted American national policies does not diminish the lives of the people who died on Sept. 11th. Nor does it dim my patriotism.

God bless America - okay. Since I do not know what that means, I am writing my representatives and senators urging them not to go nuts.

Thank you, Christine Bubb for catching this.

Take care -- all of you.

Christine !!!!! Mack!!! [Always be sceptical of exclamation points]

christine_mack@yahoo.com 806 W Liberty St Ann Arbor MI 48103

God bless America.

WTC

Gordon McCannel Aamoth, 32, New York, N.Y. investment banker, Sandler O'Neill & Partners Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Donald L. Adams, 28, Chatham, N.J. vice president of sales of eSpeed division, Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Lee Adler, 48, Springfield, N.J. computer designer, Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Godwin Ajala, 33 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Gertrude Alagero Marsh Inc. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Andrew Alameno Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Gary Albero, 39, Emerson, N.J. AON Corp. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Eric Allen, 41 firefighter, New York Fire Department Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Joseph Ryan Allen, 38 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Telmo Alvear, 25 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Michael Andrews, Belle Harbor, N.Y. Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Joseph Angelini, 63, Lindenhurst, N.Y. firefighter, New York Fire Department Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Frank Aquilino, Staten Island, N.Y. Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Louis Arena, 32 firefighter, New York Fire Department Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Adam Arias, 37 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Michael J. Armstrong, 34, New York, N.Y. Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Michael Asciak, 47, Ridgefield, N.J. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Ezra Aviles, Commack, N.Y. Port Authority of New York and New Jersey Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Evan Baron, 38 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

David Bauer, 45, Rumson, N.J. head of global sales for eSpeed, Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Paul Beatini, 40, Park Ridge, N.J. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Maria Behr, 41, Milford, N.J. securities trader, Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Bryan C. Bennett, 25, New York, N.Y. Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Alvin Bergsohn, 48, Baldwin Harbor, N.Y. Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

David S. Berry, 43, New York, N.Y. chief of research, Keefe, Bruyette & Woods Inc. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Joseph Berry, Saddle River, N.J. chairman and CEO, Keefe, Bruyette & Woods Inc. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

William Biggart, 54 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

John P. Bocchi, 38, New Vernon, N.J. managing director of interest rate options, Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Mary Boffa, 45, Staten Island, N.Y. vice president of purchasing, Marsh & McLennan Companies Inc. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Thomas H. Bowden, 36, Wyckoff, N.J. equities trader, Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Gennady Boyarsky, 45 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Pamela Boyce, 43, New York, N.Y. assistant vice president of accounting, Carr Futures Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Alfred Braca, 54, Leonardo, N.J. bond broker for eSpeed, Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Edward A. Brennan Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Frank Brennan, 50 Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Capt. Daniel Brethel, 40 firefighter, New York Fire Department Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Jonathan Briley, 43 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Keith Broomfield, 49 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Andrew Brunn, 28 firefighter, New York Fire Department Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Dennis Buckley, 38 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Timothy Byrne, 36 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Scott Cahill Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

David Campbell, Basking Ridge, N.J. senior vice president of equity sales, Keefe, Bruyette & Woods Inc. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Peter Carroll, 35 firefighter, New York Fire Department Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Paul Cascio, 23, Manhasset, N.Y. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Juan Cevallos, 44 mail carrier Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Douglas MacMillan Cherry, 38, Maplewood, N.J. vice president of professional services group, AON Corp. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Stephen P. Cherry, 41, Stamford, Conn. partner, Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Swede Joseph Chevalier, 26, Middletown, N.J. equities trader, Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Wai Chung, 36 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Alex Ciccone, 38, New Rochelle, N.Y. assistant vice president, Marsh & McLennan Companies Inc. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Stephen Colaio, 32, Montauk, N.Y. Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Christopher Colasanti, 33, Hoboken, N.J. Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Thomas Collins, 36 Sandler O'Neill & Partners Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Joseph Coppo, 47, New Canaan, Conn. municipal bond trader, Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Kevin M. Cosgrove, 46, West Islip, N.Y. claims vice president, AON Corp. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Martin Coughlan, 54 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Timothy John Coughlin, 42, New York, N.Y. senior managing director, Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Christopher S. Cramer, 34, Manahawkin, N.J. assistant vice president of tax department, Fiduciary Trust International Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Dennis Cross, 60, Islip Terrace, N.Y. firefighter, New York Fire Department Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Thomas G. Crotty, Rockville Centre, N.Y. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Robert Cruikshank, 64 executive vice president, Carr Futures Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Richard Joseph Cudina, 46, Glen Gardner, N.J. bond broker, Cantor Fitzgerald Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Joyce Cummings, 65 Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Robert Curatolo, 31 firefighter, New York Fire Department Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Vincent D'Amadeo, 36, East Patchouge, N.Y. Dead, World Trade Center, on the ground

Jack

Move to Switzerland.

To even think, let alone write, that "this is the war Bush was hoping for" is simply ridiculous. You should be ashamed for even suggesting that any American would wish to have over 6000 of his fellow citizens die just to pick a fight. I don't condone war, but you better believe if someone comes into my house and tries to kill me, I'll be the last person to turn the other cheek. If you don't want to pick up a gun and fight, fine. Lot's of people, including myself, are sad at the thought of more lives being lost. One thing we do not agree on is the need to do something about it. And pissing about the semantics of a military operation is, at best, petty. We may not stop terrorism for good, but sitting by and doing nothing will draw more criticism from the American people (including me) than if we if we take your preferred moral high road and write it off to getting what you seem to think we deserve. Shame on both of you. I suppose you would have opposed WW2 as well.

I've spent a good portion of my life pissing and moaning about America's global agenda. I don't think "democracy" belongs in every corner of the world, but I live in one of those corners. I have to worry about this situation in ways you can't possibly understand. Flocks of Arabs are coming into KL right now. Chances are that 99% of them have no agenda except shopping. I worry about Mr. 1% al Qaeda because it's fucking human nature to be suspicious - especially now. My uncle is an actor living in NYC and a textbook bleeding heart liberal. I just got an e-mail from him. He and a friend went to the site where the towers once stood. They both sobbed and sobbed at the sight and smell of the destruction. As much as he hates the thought of war, he realizes that action simply has to be taken. The most unfortunate of the spoils of war is that innocent lives are lost. So far that total of this war is 6,423.

Believe me ladies, you are the minority and even though you are entitled to your opinion, the insensitivity and thoughtlessness of your words may just rub someone the wrong way. Pay attention to how people around you feel instead of working so hard to be different for the sake of being different, as if it makes you appear more inteligent and aware. Criticism comes so easily to those who merely focus on their own agenda. Yes ladies, I'm sure you have all the answers. Personally, I don't want to hear them. You want to change the world? Join the Peace Corps, leave this horrible country you are so ready to criticize and give up your citizenship. I personally will be much more proud to be an American knowing that I don't have to include you in the group.

Rubbed the wrong way,

PC

I pray that everyday God does continue to bless America with freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from persecution...

Let me tell you my first thought was to get on a plane and get home as soon as possible to be with my family. I cannot understand people whos first thought is that of "counter attack". I must agree with previous comments about attacking other innocent countries.

Please don't brand me unpatriotic. I love this country and the freedoms that it has allowed me. Attending BK is at the top of that list. Where else in the world could I be allowed to attend a private, catholic school without the ridicule of others. Where else could I be allowed to pursue an education on my terms, Where else in the world could I be allowed and encouraged to drive a gas guzzling SUV while I blare anti government rap music while talking on a cell phone? Right here in the USA. That is what we are about FREEDOM.

I guess the point of my story is this.....You don't have to go to war with the world. You do have to try and find the people responsible and bring them to justice. What ever you do....do something. Give to the Red Cross, donate time to a charity, discuss the issues not the rhetoric. Acknowledge that this did happen and may happen again.....Call your old BK alumni friends and see how they are doing. Stop condemning the middle east, the muslims, the Jews, the Palastines.

Thanks to everyone for posting. Christine Mack, it is great to finally hear from you again. I keep searching the posts to see if you are here.

Better yet, let's not do a thing. Why should we? Our children must not be worth defending. Our way of life (altered now forever) is not worth defending.

I say mourn for the terrible loss first, then do whatever can be done to TRY to make sure this will and can't happen again.

The liberties and freedoms we take so much for granted are not a God given right. They were DEFENDED by people who did not sit on there hands when pushed into a corner.

b.l.

It's the same thing all over the place.

Christine

I do not agree with the last post concerning patriotism here in the US. Please don't use YOUR idea of patriotism to make others feel less patriotic. In all this tradegy I personally have not lost a single freedom. I can still say and write (ie this post)what ever the hell I want.

Believe me, patriotism is not about laying down your life for this country. If that were the sole qualification of being a patriot you and I would fail. Patriotism is nothing more than an idea started a little over 200 years ago. Patriotism mans that you will stand up for your inalienable rights as spelled out in our constitution. I do not want to go to war, but I will if I feel that my rights have been under threat. As of now they aren't... What I will do is condem the terrorists and teach my children about justice and freedom. That will be my contribution until asked to do more. I may even call a few BK alum. to say "hello"

There is a great qoute that goes something like this.......

"What do we mean by patriotism in the context of our times? I venture to suggest that what we mean is a sense of national responsibility..a patriotism which is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime" Adlai Stevenson.

I think a true patriot is someone that says I will stand up for what is right in anyway I can. It doesn't take a rifle to do that.

Always willing to post a thought and a name.

Chris (87)

I do think we need to be careful when we deem people "unpatriotic" when they do not fall lock-step into whatever the government wants and stop questioning. Its the right to question that lies at the cornerstone of our democracy and keeps it vibrant. We need to defend our rights from all who would suppress them. I don't think flying in an airplane is a right, so better security and the inconvenience of more precautions are well worth it. But for the government to be able to detain suspected terrorists indefinitely( as proposed by Attorney General Ashscroft) is something I will question. Because I disagree with the government, doesn't make me less patriotic or morn less the tragedy that has befallen our country. We can still support our leaders but I think it is important that in our zeal to punish the guilty and preserve our rights we don't destroy those same rights.

I don't know what we should do or to whom we should do it too. We lack the well defined enemy-state, we've had in the past. Clearly,we need to protect people and stop these attacks. But some of these terrorist cells are active in Toronto and London as well, as Kabul and Islamabad. So,again, this will be a tough process.

Christine(Bubb), I think calling this "Operation Obliterate the World" is unfair and a little partisan, while I didn't vote for the President( hey the majority of us didn't,right) I must say I am amazed and proud at the amount of restraint he has shown during this crisis. No "surgical strike" no "immediate response", he seems intent on finding all of the guilty and bringing them to justice. I hope this theme prevails and we do not target innocents. Unfortunately, for our President this is most likely going to be a long,drawn out ordeal. But, lets remember,it’s not just governments that have a responsibility to resolve crises. It’s really a conglomerate of dedicated individuals, and this is particularly true in democracy, to demonstrate our faith, our faith in ourselves, our faith in each other and our faith in God. I don't know if I learned that at BK but I'd like to think I did and hope others did too.

Again, the posts are great and hope everyone continues to put up thoughtful stuff.

Thanks,

Mike Harrington

P.S. Who is Pat?

Although I did not vote for Bush Jr. either, I have been quite surprised at how well he has handled this whole situation. He has been patient and making sure that he has all his ducks in a row before he strikes back at the radicals who have attacked America. I am also relieved that in this time, when America is under a microscope by the entire world, hanging on Bush Jr's every word, he has gotten himself a new speech writer. Being the dullard that he is, at least he doesn't sound like his usual idiotic self.

Is it just me, or does it seem like a military strike at this point would be a bit of a late whistle? Never mind the fact that the US supplied weapons to the people who now call themselves the al Qaeda during their war with the Soviet Union. Oops...

The world has changed exponentially since Pearl Harbor. At first, I thought of Sept 11 as the same sort of thing, but it's not. That being the case, is it justifiable to even think about going to war? I don't see Osama-lama-ding-dong as having Hitleresque ambitions. It sounds legitimate to say that the attack on America was an attack on the free world (democracy), but was it? I don't think so. I think the al Qaeda (or whomever did this) accomplished exactly what they set out to do and America was the target. Maybe our focus should be to make sure we have systems in place to ensure this never happens again - even on a smaller scale. If it means putting more CIA spooks out in the world (I'm sure C-Mack would love that) to keep an eye on things and gather information, I'd rather see that than send ground troops into Afganistan. Russia was a big-bad-super-power when they went in there and we all know what happened to them. It just doesn't sound like a war we want to get into. If (yeah, if...) innocent Muslims are killed in such a campain, we could see a profound back-lash from the Arab nations who now support us. The more you think about it, the more of a bad idea it seems to be.

Osama bin Laden is a bad guy. I don't think anyone disputes that. If it is at all possible, I think most Americans would prefer to see him captured, his al Qaeda disbanded and brought to justice and put this whole thing behind us. I think the people of Afganistan have suffered enough under the Taliban regime. A thorough bombing of their already decimated country certainly wouldn't help to ease their suffering.

In closing, I'd like to apologize to Christine Bubb and "Hippy" (who is that mysterious hippy?) for what could have been easily perceived as me over reacting to people exercizing their 1st ammendment rights. I didn't agree with the comments you both made, but I'm glad as hell you're allowed to make them without being shot in the head at a sold-out soccer stadium (ala Taliban style). It's been tough being half way around the world, away from family and friends and hearing all this stuff on CNN. Especially when Larry King had Pat Boone on. I just had to vent. I hope you can forgive me.

Shine on, you crazy diamonds. I'm out...

PC

For Mike Harrington: a translation - "Pat" is the OTHER Mike Harrington's brother...and I'm thinking "Hippy" is one of the Troy brothers.

Why don't you save me some grief and get back here to the US. Maybe I would stop worrying about you and get some sleep.

Out. Chris Peck (87) P.S. Where exactly the hell are you?

I'm in Malaysia and have been for the past 2 years. I'm working for a restaurant company (capitalis imperials, hell-bent on raping the culture). It pays the bills, but sucks the life out of me. That aside, SE Asia is unbelievable. The plan is to stay here for good. The future Mrs. Cusick is Malaysian, so that should keep me here for a while. It's a Muslim country, but they're the soft, cuddly Muslims you see on fabric softeners. You, and anyone else who wants to see a truly amazing part of the world, should come to SE Asia some time. Great beaches, diving, food architecture, culture, people, scenery, weather, exchange rate and on and on.

As for not getting any sleep, don't sweat me being here. OBL wouldn't attack another Muslim country. I'm safer here than in most other places. Besides, winter is around the corner for y'all and that simply won't do for me. I hope you are well. Drop me a note on my e-mail sometime. It's been a long time since I heard from you. Out...PC

Will this end soon? NO! Will there be innocent people lost? YES... so far over 6000 innocent people lost and in my back yard! Do I wish more innocent people lost? NO! But I want a free country for my children to grow up in and to fight for what my grandfather, father and husband fought for throughout the years. Turn the other cheek and don't support our President and troops fighting for you. But when it comes time to ask our country for support... don't bother.

Shame on you for not supporting our troops over there fighting for you! These men and women are not over there for a good time, they are fighting for the very thing you all are taking advantage of right now! If you think these terrorist are going to be satisfied that they "accomplished" what they set out to do, think again! If we don't defend our country now and stand up for our rights as Free American and Democracy, then your sons and daughters are going to end up fighting for this in the next few years. What will you do then?

Think of all those families that lost someone in the attack! Think of all those children left with out father's, mother's or both!! Think of the terror those people on the planes who were bound togther and plunged full speed into buildings full of people who never had a chance. Think of all those troops in a different country fighting for a nation that doesn't support them. Now picture that they are related to you, a father, mother, son or daughter.

Shame of you for taking such a precious gift as FREEDOM for granted!! It isn't free and what the President is doing is for the very people who don't seem to want it!

Freedom isn't free, we all know that. But when you walk with a big stick and act with a heavy hand you are bound to get sucker punched.

Thanks for the interesting input everyone, Father Dodson would be proud. As for the Hippy, wasn't he at BK in the 70s?

Secondly, I do not appreciate being given the "Shame on you" treatment for having an idea or thought or freaking OPINION that differs from yours. Thanks for your beliefs, but you can keep your "SHAME on you" to yourself (whoever the hell you are).

Hopefully we will not have to.

We decided that every now and then it is a good thing for the US of A to fly the flag of Dixie, drink a few Lone Stars and let the world know that inbreeding is alive and well....

Orion Ramsey - Friday, 09/21/01, 2:35:00pm (#58980 of 58989) To those extremists that perpetrated this crime against our nation, I have a warning for you. There are those of us who look at your actions as irrational, twisted, and completely inhuman. By all measures, what you have done can only be seen as insane. I have news for you. We're more nuts than you, and it should scare you shitless.

You may think that when you die for your cause, you go to Paradise with 72 virgins, can leave reservations for 70 members of your family, all your sins are forgiven, and you sit at the side of Allah. Big deal. We had 39 guys who rented a Beverly Hills mansion, cut off their nuts, built a web site, and proceeded to poison themselves to death to hitch a ride with aliens out on the Hale-Bopp comet.

You shoot guns into the sky to celebrate victories over enemies, and people are killed by the bullets raining down on them. We not only do this for New Year's Eve in some cities, but we burn houses down, tear up streets, loot and sack our stores, and beat our selves senseless when our sports teams win championships. Sports teams!

We made a sequel to Police Academy 5. We gave an award for singing to two guys who never even sang. We put little sweaters on dogs. We shot John Lennon six times and didn't even aim for Yoko Ono. We think Elvis is still alive. We put Braille on drive-up automatic teller machines.

We think that a simple button on a web site that says "Do not click if you're under 21" will do anything but cause a person under 21 to click on it.

We take a large chunk of the island on which those buildings you destroyed sat and pretend that it isn't a part of our country after all, let people fly in to our airports that we want to kill, drive them in limousines to speak against us on this "pretend territory" land, let them drive back to our airport, and let them fly them back home without a scratch.

We sell hot dogs in packages of ten and the buns in packages of eight. We can't even decide if pitchers should have to bat for themselves or not. All those baseball fields we've got. none of them are even remotely the same size.

We gave millions of dollars to a guy that told us that God was going to kill him if he didn't raise enough money. When he didn't get enough money, he didn't die. So we gave him more money in celebration of the fact that God didn't make him die.

We've managed to keep the formulas for Coca-Cola and Kentucky Fried Chicken secret for decades, we encrypt the most banal communications on our Information Superhighway, and yet we given away our most important nuclear secrets to the Chinese and Russians at the drop of a hat.

And yet, with all this on the A-1 Psycho balance sheet, you still think you're more nuts than us that this won't result in your complete and utter annihilation? One way or another, your way of life will be over, period.

Freedom's kind of a crazy, kooky, nutty thing when you look really close at it and all the bizarre and loony things that can result from it, but it's better than any other ideas anybody else has come up with. It's been that way since 1776, and built to last no matter how insanely we try to screw it up on a daily basis. We are even so nuts and ruthless enough as a nation to start insanely tearing at those of ourselves that even remotely resemble you in such rancorous, deplorable, and angry ways that will make you wonder if Allah has enough glue to piece enough of you back together for a flesh paperweight in Paradise.

We may not know where you are now, but when we do I guarantee you that the majority of our high school children will still have no idea where on the globe you are or where you will end up being buried. But we will send them anyway, and we will allow those of them that went into the armed services because they didn't manage to get into college *still* rain down Hell and fire on your worthless hides. It will all come down on you, because we're nuts enough to give all four of our branches of military services extremely powerful and deadly aircraft even though only one of them is actually called the Air Force.

Picking a fight with the most insane nation on Earth with the hope that your message and influence will spread throughout the world, well, that's just downright stupid. [ Top ]

Like it has been said before, freedom is not free it does come with a price tag attached...have any of us ever talked to our parent's generation or possibly our grandparent's generation about what they had to go through to get where they are today...Pearl Harbor, Korea etc...it can be an amazing and eye opening conversation to be had and may make one think that we are lucky to have had so many years of freedom that others have made possible for us. Many of these vetrans are leaving this earth at an astounding rate and we need to learn more about our history from them before all we can get is written in text books...they lived and survived it.

Christine Marie Bubb, Class of '81, I live in Boise but will not tell you where, I work at the Statesman and wear a size 8 shoe. See how easy that is??

I (Patrick Cusick) really do appreciate your love for the US and passion for wanting to defend it. I (Patrick Cusick) really do. For one second, however, let's be realistic.

Someone wrote in an earlier post that, although the attacks were horrific, his personal freedom had not been compromised. As a nation, we are all shaken by what has happened in NYC and DC, but at their core, these attacks seem more like a symbol to show us we are vulnerable as well as being the agenda of a few fringe Muslims. Let's not get confused and think that our very way of life is under attack. I (Patrick Cusick) understand what you are trying to say, but this isn't WW2. Don't treat it the same way. I (Patrick Cusick) think we need to be pragmatic and admit that bombing Afganistan has a lot more to do with revenge than it does with defending democracy and the freedom we cherish. It's not the type of thing we may want to admit, but there is truth to it. Revenge is valid. It's human nature to want an enemy to suffer the same fate, maybe even more so. I think someone called "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Where did I (Patrick Cusick) hear that?

But please don't glorify this as some great cause for democracy. This is the systematic extermination of a virus we call terrorism. It's not pretty, it's not noble, but it may be a neccessity given the threat it (appearantly) poses. Nobody is chastising the soldiers themselves for going over to fight. They just take orders. Everyone knows that. I (Patrick Cusick) don't know where you got the idea that people are taking freedom for granted. So what if we are? We all have. I'd (Patrick Cusick) be willing to bet that the people who's views you don't agree with appreciate their country and exercise their freedom on a day to day basis more than you will ever know. What's more, they've had the courage to voice their opinions without remaining anonymous.

I'm (Patrick Cusick) living in a Muslim country right now and I (Patrick Cusick) would personally like to see the bombing stop. So far it's fine here, but there's always a chance things could get complicated. You think you feel nervous about your precious freedom? Walk a mile in my (Patrick Cusick's) shoes.

We all want to be free, we just don't to kill a bunch of people for it. We also don't want to see our own soldiers die in some far away place. It's a tough one: do nothing and look like a chump or do something and look like a giant imperialist war machine, hell-bend on globalization and the elimination of Islam. Either way, we're going to bend some noses out of joint. From there it's just a matter of each person's opinion as to what should be done. Just don't ambush people for having an opinion.

This is just a guess, but am I (Patrick Cusick) responding to Ari Fleisher?

Just wondering,

PC

Hope you're all well. Just took the LSAT and am now filling out law school apps. The girlfriend is good and the cats are fat. There's nothing like Colorado aspen trees in the fall.

ciao

I'm new to this bullitin page - think it's cool that someone started it!.

It's good to see so many people just plain CARE.

I have been involved in a number of conference calls with dozens of poeple since 9-11 and was quickly amazed at how many poeple didn't agree with ME!

I went to school from 1 to 8th grade with a war monger and a Hippie who were diametricly apposed in their thinking but we were just kids so we could still be friends. It was good to grow up with that!

I'm far from a war monger - closer to a hippie! and I hate war but understand that this IS war. And inocent people have to die in war. Yes even women and children have to die in war. Many of ours did.

Shame on those who spit on our OWN Viet Nam vets.

We are doing the right thing my friends. It's not just about us and our children, it is about the WORLD in a hundred years.

God Bless You All! - I am so proud to be associated with each one of you.

Lots of love, Tony Thomas

I was an abused woman here in the US and am very sensitive on the subject of the oppressed women under the Taliban rule. No one who has posted in opposition of the war in Afghanistan wants women to be treated like those poor souls. One really has nothing to do with the other. I also feel that the abortion protestor was a little out of bounds. I feel this way because I don't agree with either one of you. However, as an American I recognize that you have the right to say what you want even if I consider it narrow-minded (which I obviously do).

The good-hearted people who have contributed to this sight (and I believe that we are all extremely good-hearted or we wouldn't be so emotionally disturbed by recent events) need a place to vent our fears, frustration, and confusion. I think that this thread is just a bunch of us trying to make sense out of something that is entirely senseless. Here are my feelings.......

I hate war. I hate the idea of war. I hate the idea of violence. I hate the idea of confrontation. I hate the idea of death. I hate the idea of terrorism. One of my personal philosophies in life is as long as an individual conducts activities which do not harm other people in any way, I have no problem with them. I don't care if someone worships the devil, drugs, sex, or anything else for that matter as long as the only person harmed in the process is the self and no one else. I don't care about another's beliefs, race, sexual orientation, or weight as long as they do not harm anyone else. Gay people, hispanic people, horny people, lazy people, whatever......they do not hurt people, and I as an American have a great deal of respect for their individuality. "To each his own" rings very true at my house.

BUT>>>>Terrorists hurt people. I don't care why. I only care that they do.

People who hurt people cannot live in my world, and people who hurt my family, my own flesh and blood, my fellow Americans....well there are no easy words. Destroy them, lock them up, kill them, maim them. I see it as a necessary evil because these people cannot be allowed to exercise their warped beliefs in society. They simply cannot.

One person in my family left Boston the day before the attacks. Another was on the ferry into lower Manhattan when the first plane hit. Yet another will be sent off to fight in Afghanistan. Yeah, I have been personally affected by this. But I did not lose anyone. I wonder if all of those opposing the action of the US would feel the same if they had lost their mother or father or sister or brother. I was lucky, but there are many,many people who were not.

I'm not saying that we are absolutely doing the right thing. Nobody's perfect and neither is our country. I do think we're doing a pretty good job though, and as an American I will support this action realizing that it is another American's right to oppose it. I will pray for Angela's husband and all the troops. I will pray that we, as a result of this tragedy, will be more tolerant of each other because we are all pretty good people even if and because we don't agree with each other. We all just want the world to be a better place. We want the world to be right and just. We just don't want bloodshed to be a part of that better world.

My opinion as been stated earleir no need to repeat (Where is spell-check on this thing?)

I do want to add food for thought:

Is it really true that people who worhsip the devil, drugs, or sex, do not harm anyong but themselves? To each his own is a fantastic philosophy, but can be dangerous to our country if one doesn't see the harm in thinking that that's okay in every arena. Do you really think Gays or porn-addicts don't hurt anyone but themselves? If nothing else each one strengthens the future of these acts, like a snowball, if ignored will close in on you or one of your loved ones and ... hurt you!

These things are certainly weak links in our great country.

God bless each one of you, and your effets to make this a better place for our great great grandchildren who may not even know our names.

After what Father said at Mass today I realized why the conference calls I'd been on a couple of weeks ago changed me so braudened me (spell check).

the conference calls were to be business related - discuss stategies etc. but out of respect, we discussed the attacks and and our feelings. You'da been proud of how I bit my tounge.

Father was talking about prayre and how when we continue to communcate with God even when we don't feel like it, it is much like comunicating with a friend about an issue and how through discussion we often clearify our desires , beliefs etc.

This board surves the same purpose.

Hope that make sence...

Ton-

Tony- I don't know you - maybe one of my siblings did, but you seem like a nice, thoughtful person from the postings you have left (even though you are spell-checked challenged:) ). I haven't written to this site in a while but when I read your last thoughts, I really got a little incensed.

I know this particular thread is about the recent terrorist attacks and our feelings and thoughts about the aftermath (Patty, I felt you expressed yourself well and I am sorry for your pain, but thankful for your insight)- but your random toss-off about "gays" made me hopping mad. I also think that this whole terrorist issue is based on an intolerance of people who happen to be different from YOU...and hating them or persecuting them for it.

While I am not gay, several of my best friends are. My best friend in the world was a gay man who has now passed. He would NOT be happy to be lumped into a category with "porn-addicts" (your quote) and he did not hurt anyone in his life. In fact, he enriched all who knew him, worked his whole life to make life more beautiful and I miss him very much.

If you dropped this reference randomly, I am sorry for the diatribe. If you meant it sincerely, I am sorry for you. You need to broaden (spelled correctly) your horizons. Christine

My summation is this.....I do not feel that it is my right or anyone else's on the face of this earth to judge another person. How does that saying go....Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.....I don't feel that America's actions are entirely based on revenge, only partially. I believe we are acting in self defense of our citizens, only a little late.

Let me reiterate my final point again. Let us be tolerant of each other. Let us not judge...that will happen in the afterlife. If all of humankind could just live by the Golden Rule, wouldn't the world be that better place we're all hoping for? So enough criticism and narrow-mindedness. Let us all do a little soul searching and work on ourselves and embrace those different from us. Let us all strive to be good and just in our everyday lives. Perhaps that will SNOWBALL.

To further explain Patty's reasoning (if I am wrong Patty, please let me know) but I do belive that she doesn't "group people together" for just the sake of catagorizing Americans--she does it to make you look beyond that--to appreciate the diversity that our country provides. One cannot simply catagorize the American people, for we are too diverse to try and make a simple analogy.

The most wonderful part of our country is that we are free to pursue the things in life that interest us--whether it be porn, whips, chains (okay, we needed a little humor in here)etc. are a detriment to society, but when you provide the "freedom" that we are all accustomed to, you will find that negative input popping up all around. We can't possibly fight all that is negative in our country, but the fact that we can express our opinion and focus our efforts on the issues that we feel strongly about is what this country is all about.

I applaud and pray for all the men and women fighting against terrorism--it is simply something that HAS to be done.

Karen

Take care Custer

Tony Thomas, As a fan of the First Amendment, I must say I support your right to express any opinion you have. I would never give you the "don't print that nonsense on this board" speech. Additionally, as a Catholic, I understand from where ideas such as "homosexuals hurting themselves" comes.

Let me just say that after years of misery, praying and adherence to my faith--a faith that no longer considers me worthy--God led me to live a life of honesty and integrity. I'm not hurting myself. I have a valid and fulfilling relationship with my creator. I'm not hurting my girlfriend. We enjoy a stable, happy and joyous relationship, something I never experienced when living a life of deceit. I am not a lesbian because I hate men, was abused as a child (imagine how many lesbians would exist if we were the product of sexual abused women), or didn't have a bond with my mother growing up. Actually, the bond with my mother only ended after she found out my sexual orientation.

You are well within your right to disbelieve me. You may forevermore believe the mistaken words of people who don't understand, or the homophobic myths you hear about gay men...but if you've ever been wrong about anything in your life, you might consider that you're mistaken now.

Anyhow...Back to the war Angela, I'll pray for your husband, as I pray for every living being whose life will and has ended in these recent times.

Meghan...you rat. Where are you? Please send me your number so I don't get stuck watching cooking shows with Grandma when I come home to visit.

Danielle, God bless you! Anything I would say you've heard before.

Where are the rest of you who believe that God created Man and Woman and a wonderful gift of procreation. And meant that pleasure to be for that purpose. Speak up America.

Ton-

Tony obviously has his views and others have ours.

We shouldn't skew what people come here to write about...This thread is kind of meant to cheer on "America United" and celebrate our country, freedoms, tolerance, not being OK with hate crimes...oh yeah, being OK with gay people, Muslims, people who are different from us.

Duh, rah.

This is my first visit to the Alumknights site. I have enjoyed seeing familiar names and reading about people's lives.

Before I returned to Boise I coordinated youth and adult education and exchange programs in 22 countries around this small planet.

Until you live abroad, I think you have trouble understanding both America's faults and her strengths.

One thought overwhelmes me as I read these posts. I have been to many countries where many of your comments would be cause for imprisonment or even execution. For all her faults, America still is a land of freedom. You should thank God for this country, pray for her leaders, and help fix her faults.

Oh and GO KELLY KNIGHTS!!!!

Ton- http://www.presidentialprayerteam.org

As much as I know we as a nation need to do something to solve this terrorism problem, I can't help feeling horrible about the course of action we have chosen. I wish Angela's husband didn't have to be there, or anyone else.

Mike Ballantyne hit on it. We as Americans have this idea that our country's agenda is common to the rest of the world. Believe me, it's not. If you look back on US policy in the middle east, you start to see that there could very well be a very good reason why we're not so well liked over there. We haven't exactly been on our best behavior.

And now we're bombing an already crumbled nation into dust. It's a shame. I only hope after we have finished, that we do the right thing and help the people of Afganistan instead of leaving them to twist in the wind like we did in Kuwait. I hope that we can step aside and let the citizens of the Arab region lead in creating a new Afganistan. I hope we can wake up and realize that even though Palestinians have approached their cause with devastating impunity, that giving them a sliver of land in the desert would do wonders to calming tensions in the middle east. Isreal hasn't been on its best behavior either. Our endorsement of that behavior is a big reason for anti-western sentiment over there.

This war is going to cost us. It already has. Now the largest defense contract in history has been approved and the debt that Clinton wiped out will pile up again.

I guess as time has gone by since Sept 11, I feel like I understand all of this less than I did before. I just can't help feeling that there must be something else that we can do to feel safe again without bombing an extremely poor country and spending billions of dollars on new fighter planes. Anybody have any ideas, because I'm tapped out.

One more thing - Tony, I used to subscribe to the same beliefs as you regarding homosexuality. I promise you that gays are nothing to fear. What happens between you and your wife in the bedroom is nobody's bid'ness. The same goes for a gay couple. Nobody chooses to be gay, and they shouldn't be ashamed about it. If we are all children of God, so are they. Don't worry about it Tony. They really are wonderful people and I hope that someday you get a chance to realize that for yourself. They are no harm to you or anyone else. Quite the opposite actually. Love thy neighbor, Tony, love thy neighbor.

PC

If the answer is no, then what ramifications will this response invite? Would inaction result in more loss of life (American in this case), and effectively neuter us in the world heirarchy?

If the answer is yes, but limited to actions that do not threaten innocent people or involve innocent countries, then by what means is this not only possible, but plausible in effect. I.e can we simply assume that yelling loudly will cause the assailants to scatter when delivered without bullish action? If the answer is yes, narrow in scope, yet vast in commitment, and resonous with constitutional vision then we will at the very least uphold the mission of America...liberty, and at the very most provide freedom from Talibanic oppression and create a new world commitment to end the funding and harboring of "terrorists."

Henry Ford said "Failure is only the opportunity to begin again more intelligently."

May we have the courage to admit when we fail, and the intuition to select the right and just course of action as our campaign unfolds.

I prefer the idea of making mistakes with opportunity for rectification, rather than shying from an ethical and political imparitive from fear of making mistakes.

Why is it that people get so carried away with semantics? Mr. Hays uses one word you don't like, so you ambush him. Now, I don't know who you are or when you graduated. Maybe you didn't have Sister Lilian for English (she taught us a lot about words and stuff...). I don't know. But read what Mr. Hays has written (correct me if I'm wrong, Carl), and you will see that the "mistake" he refers to is the fact that Sept.11 happened in spite of the fact that Brirish intelligence provided the CIA with information suggesting a catastrophic attack was in the works - and the powers that be chose to ignore it. I'd call that a textbook definition of "mistake". It's a big one, but a mistake nonetheless. Hence, the opportunity to learn from that mistake and ensure that it doesn't happen again. See, mistake can be used many ways. I realize that, in your view, it's use in this case is a bit like saying a man who gets decapitated received an "injury", but (in escence) that's really what it is.

Next point.

If I have to hear more uninformed, blind support of Israel, I'm going to join the PLO (or pull my hair out). Check in with the BBC some time and see what sneaky shit Israel has been up to over the past few months. The difference between Israel and Palestine is the fact that the Israeli government has the support of the US government and they buy military equipment from us. Believe me, we've been wrong before. As we speak, US soldiers are being shot at with antiquated American guns and stinger missles we sold to Afghans years ago.

The problem is, when the the PLO takes an eye, Israel comes back and blows off the whole friggin head. Let's not forget that Yassir Arafat was one of the first leaders to denounce the attacs on NYC and DC. He's no boyscout, but when a Palestinian shoots an Israeli kid on his own accord (not by direct order of Arafat), it doesn't give Israel the right to fly in with F-16's and strafe the Gaza Strip with cluster bombs and cruise missles. Be reasonable, for God's sake. Yeah, in the past Israel has been a good friend to have in the middle east, but the reality is that we just need a place to park when we send planes to that part of the world. I'm not saying we abandon Israel, but we better damn-well take a long, hard look at them and realize that giving the Palestinians a dry patch of dirt to call home would do wonders to curb anti-western sentiment in the middle east.

There's a whole other world out Mr. Nov. 6, 2001 9:40pm. I recommend that you put down your USA Today, pick up a newspaper with substance, and learn that the way we think in the US is not a view we share with most of the world. Or, I misread what Carl Hays was trying to say, in which case never mind all that stuff I just said .

PC

We all need a bit of humor these days, don't you think? Many of you may already know about this site, but for those who don't, give it a look. It's where I log on to escape the stress of work and feel American for a while.

http://www.theonion.com/

It's tongue-in-cheek. Sometimes it's tongue-sticking-through-cheek. At any rate, it's a good laugh and laughing is healing.

Enjoy

PC

What in the world do you do for a living? Ya work for Mussolini? Thought the old Eye-talian (hate it when people prounounce it that way, but hell, I am from Eye-da-Ho) was dead. Wonderous. I can't remember (and am too lazy to scroll up and research your stated profession). If you are an attorney, please keep in mind that while I am not currently (and not recently and hopefully not ever) in trouble with the law - I want you as my counsel. You kick butt when butt needs kicking.

I have no job for you, but I work at a newspaper. You should write editorials and incite the villagers.

As for the ongoing debate about pacifism vs. the "go-and-Bomb-the-Shit-out-of-the terrorists" - while I truly empathisize with the family members of military persons sent to fight the bastards who threaten the freedoms of so many...I can't help but think of the senseless killing, the already devastated countries we are leveling, the gazillions of dollars being spent on military (when people so near to us just want a dollar to buy some dinner), and the mountain of information that we civilians have no freaking clue about - guarded closely by our elected officials and never revealed to the common citizen.

I have no answers, only questions (and a burning desire to speak to Pat Cusick's therapist and mention Prozac). Just kidding, Pat. I find you inspired, insightful and funny. Rock on. The best part is - YOU sign your postings. Bravo, bud. Christine Marie Francis Bubb - Class of the Ancients '81.

Christine, I'd like to take this time to answer some of your questions. Thank you for your interest. As a new member of the Patrick Cusick Fan Club, you'll be eligible for all sorts of great discounts on PC merchandise as well as the monthly newsletter "Bizzare Rant Times". Stay tuned to this thread for more exciting details and great offers on trendy new hat and t-shirt designs!

#1: Blood sugar. Thankfully, I don't suffer from diabetes, but I do get a little hypoglecemic when I don't eat soon enough. I also get a headache when I don't have coffee and I often wake up in the morning with an erection. Then again who doesn't shake when they're starving?

#2: How I pay 'dem bills. Well, I'm not an attourney - but the world sure could use another one. However, what I do and for whom I do it is as noble as the above. I am the corporate training manager for a foodservice and franchise development company in Kuala Lumpur. God, is it me or should I have just said that I'm part of the (globalization) problem? No, it's not Hard Rock Cafe. We're nobody. I'm not kidding. In a million years (assuming you could live that long) you would never hear of the profound mediocrity this company has managed to achieve. It pays the bills and, more importantly, I get to live overseas. I did write a few articles for the Boise Weekly a few years ago, but gave it up when their huge salaries moved me into an unfavorable tax bracket. Actually, I love to write and although I consider myself average at best, I'd love the chance at doing it for a living. I was a photographer before I took a job with these losers. I should be doing something to further that pursuit.

#3: Mussolini. Yeah, you know, I thought he was dead too. But, wouldn't you know it, he's reborn as my boss. Some luck huh? He's taller this time around, and British. Lets hope he suffers the same fate. Luckily, I don't have as much contact with our managing director. That guy used to be Hitler.

#4: Therapy & Prozac. I've never been to a therapist or taken prozac, but if there was ever a suitable candidate, you're readin' him. Right now what I really need is new job and a nap.

That's it for now, Christine! Thanks so much your questions and I hope you enjoyed visiting our "e-Fan-zine!" ...Wait, this is that bomb-an-Afghan-baby-for-Jesus site? Oh shit, I completely forgot I don't have my own web site. This is really embarrassing. Where's my lithium..?

PC

"Cheapening real tragedy by calling it a "mistake" is wrong. These "mistakes" as you call them involve thousands of people, and their lives. Wearing white after labor day is a mistake. Killing innocent people in NYC and Kabul is tragic. How do we "rectify"with the Taliban? What possible remedy is to be given."

These two responses clarify, for me, the difference between dreamers and doers. A dreamer laments at the "tragedies" within the world, camps upon the graves of loss, and kneels at the alter of dissension, while believing that "a better place" is within their reach and just beyond their grasp, if only more people would stand beside them and cry with them.

A doer, strides one step beyond destruction, pulls one more person from an early grave, sees life as a process and proverbs as a lesson, sees people as human, and most importantly believes that one cannot say before one has done, and if one has not done, then he/she shall profess will all heart and soul what they would be willing to do, if only the opportunity presents itself.

PC strikes me as a doer.

As for you, Christine, keep dreaming kiddo. More often than not, the dreamers give the doers inspiration to go out and do - mostly because we get sick of watching you sit there with your mouths agape, staring at the ceiling while you twirl your hair (joke, I promise).

Is it me or has the dialog on this thread been reduced to masturbation? It seems like everyone (present company included) has engaged in bashing each other for having the wrong or different opinion and most of it seems to be rather self-serving. I've made great strides to only stomp on those who are either uninformed or whining too much for my liking, but I think it may be about time we all try to learn something.

Carl, the way you write would suggest to me that you've spent more than a few hours pondering the sound of your own voice and I suppose that counts as dreaming on some level. It wouldn't surprize me a bit if you could learn something from Christine. While I agree that there are fundamental differences between those who do and those who ponder the concept of doing, I would choose to celebrate those differences rather than suggest that one is better than the other. Christine certainly isn't vascilating between one opinion or the other. She knows what she knows and sticks to it. What's more, she sticks her neck out and defends it. Now that's doing.

Christine, you are a Bubb and, therefore, I am biased towards you (sorry Carl, I graduated with her little brother). Now, I don't know what you can learn form Carl, but I'm sure there's something. Maybe sentence structure or pragmatism (my personal favorite, all hail Dennis Miller!) or something...

The point I'm trying to make here is that there's a lot going on in the world these days. Instead of pissing about semantics or the difference between this guy or that guy or suggesting gays and porn addicts are cut from the same mold or WHATEVER, we could attempt to engage ourselves in some informative dialog. We do have a good thing going here. It may the first time in the history of BK when there was no clique running the show, and for that we should pat ourselves on the back.

From time to time, we'll all get rubbed the wrong way (as have I), but we all have something to say and I would love to hear all of it. One thing is for sure; we should all have a sence of humor about ourselves and enjoy the fact that former students of all ages are actually sharing this thread. But, for the love of Ganesh, sign your name to your post. That's the rules, kiddies. You randomly ambush someone with no name to back it up, and may the shit-storm of retaliation stain your favorite shirt. What's more, I'll be happy to join in trampling on whatever you have to say should you choose to sucker punch somebody.

So there you have it. My contribution for the day. Stay tuned to the main message board for a new thread produced, directed and starring your's truly. Coming soon!

Cheers,

PC

By the way, pondering the sound of your own voice... I think you resemble that remark, besides I think you mean to say that I am egocentric.

I do not consider my statements to bash anyone, simply to make categorical distinctions.

Incidentally PC I appreciate you speaking your mind, and of course your support when I am being ambushed, though I think that I am capable of defending myself. I would characterize you as a doer mostly because of how you say what you say, not necessarily because of what you say... which I think is often overly sensationalized and a tad melodramatic.

The crux of my message about doer's versus dreamers clearly became lost in confusion over a connotative distinction of the word "dreamer." Dreamer's are both visionaries and idealists, but they are also "habitually impractical" people. The romantic sense of the word would align with the visionary, leader, and inspirationalist, whereas the adverse sense of the word would align with the habitually impractical. I categorized the two statements I quoted as consonant with the negative sense of the "dreamer" as juxtaposed to doer. The reason: a visionaries message is qualitatively different than the messages of your mutual friends...more positively thrusted, motivating, inspiring, Martin Luther King's "I have a Dream" or "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" are perfect examples of a (visionary) dreamer, versus, the negative, bashing as you call it, language contained in many of these messages here. The language that is selected to portray one's message, as well as the collection of thoughts assembled to convey an idea, are what I weigh. I found nearly all of Bubbs messages to be decidedly negative and rather whiney at that. I am a dreamer, yes, but one tempered with the practical wisdom of sages, such as Henry Ford, Thomas Jefferson: one who was an anti semite, and the other who supported slavery...I am not an anti-semite, nor am I racist, do I think that Jefferson and Ford had something to offer intellectually, absolutely, does that mean I support every single opinion they professed? absolutely not. Obviously we can learn from each other. Collective dialogue begins the process of change.

I do love the written word, and carefully construct what I say. If that means I spend lots of time pondering the sound of my own voice, then yes I do.

"I would choose to celebrate those differences rather than suggest that one is better than the other. Christine certainly isn't vascilating between one opinion or the other. She knows what she knows and sticks to it. What's more, she sticks her neck out and defends it. Now that's doing."

To be a habitually impractical dreamer is clearly less preferable than a habitually achieving doer. Socrates stated that one can believe bad opinions; one sticking to a particular opinion is not necessarily a good thing...especially when that bad opinion could restrict them from doing anything..for example idealistic paralysis...i.e. the world is so messed up because it cannot be the utopia it ought to be, and nothing can be done about it, the task is overwhelming, so why even try.

Nusrat, a 21-year-old Kabul resident, said: "All of the people are happy because they are free. All of the people are congratulating each other." New York Times 11/13/01

On Kabul's outskirts, women forced into virtually total seclusion under Taliban rule waved excitedly to foreigners. Hundreds of people celebrated in the streets. At least one child flew a kite, an act also banned under the Taliban. New York Times 11/13/01

"If the answer is yes, narrow in scope, yet vast in commitment, and resonous with constitutional vision then we will at the very least uphold the mission of America...liberty, and at the very most provide freedom from Talibanic oppression and create a new world commitment to end the funding and harboring of "terrorists."" Carl Hays 11/6/01

I rest my case.

I am just confused as to why you single me out as "whiney" and dig up a quote from the very beginning of this thread nearly two months ago. Did I accidentally insult your mother or kick your dog? As PC inferred, I thought we were discussing issues here, accepting other views as OPINIONS of others, and stating your own. No need to bury me or anyone else, dude.

I guess that I really AM negative about a lot of military/government/war-related issues. You are right, but that is my right. But I am positive about a lot of other things, so I just don't feel too awful darn bad.

The quotes you posted were quite uplifting and I am glad that you shared them. Let's hope that the news just keeps getting better.

I do read, however I do not research per se, I do not have enough time. I remembered what you said, and as I was reading the New York Times on www.newyorktimes.com I thought those quotes were relevant.

I am glad you exercise your right to volunteer your opinions, as I reserve the right to provide evidence in support or in opposition to your opinions, and as I expect people will do the same with my opinions i.e. the Henry Ford quote.

I dont think you know my mother or my dog:)

The point of this exercise, is to demonstrate that many people believe in America, support America, and can provide evidence that America is doing the "right" thing, and I happen to be one of them.

Hello, pot? This is the kettle. You're black.

You're right Carl, I do find you egocentric, but then some of my favorite people are. There are worse character traits. As for the sound of my own voice, I don't love it, but I like it as a friend.

Now, I need clarification on something. You've made reference to the "narrow in scope, vast in commitment" way of going about this Afghanistan campain. Is that the way you think we should be going about our business, or is that a quote you dug up? It seems like choosing the best way to go about doing what we're doing over there (what the hell are we doing over there?) is a matter of the lesser of all evils. "Narrow in scope, vast in committment" seems like the lesser of all evils based on loss of civilian life. Look at what Laos is still dealing with today in terms of unexploded bombs and the deaths they have caused since the Vietnam war. The cluster bombs we have been dropping in Afghanistan are essentially the same ones we used back then. They are inaccurate and up to 30% of them do not detonate. This is no way to liberate a country. What's more, the US government is not funding the clean-up effort in Laos. I hardly think things will be different once this is all over.

All of this speculation is based on the answer "yes" to the question of whether or not we should do anything. I'm no Tali-fan and I knew of the atrocities the Taliban was guilty of before Sept. 11. The last straw for me was when they destroyed the giant Buddahs a few months ago. Did I think the Taliban needed to be ousted then? Yep I did. Did I think we needed to be the ones to do it? Nope I didn't.

Then came Sept. 11 came along and I watched in horror as the events unfolded live on CNN. Once the insiders had a chance to gather their thoughts and make statements as to the way this situation would be handled, I feared for the worst and hoped for the best. This whole idea of "making no distinction between terrorists and the countries that harbor them" struck me as a pretty broad disclaimer for going to war with the best possible candidate. No disrespect to those who died on Sept. 11, but maybe acting out our revenge so violently isn't the best course of action. Remember Reagan's war on drugs? You get rid of one kingpin in the cartell and another is waiting. This is no different. Believing that Osama Bin Laden is unique and cannot be replaced is wishful thinking. Can we get him? I doubt it. Not the way we're going about it now. We couldn't get Castro or Hussein and a host of others, so why should we think we can get this guy? And if we do, then what?

Here's a story that sums up the way I've been feeling.

A Wall Street type walks in to Shorty's Bar (the middle east) and decides this will be his new haunt. By the looks on the faces of the red-necks (Muslims) in the bar, he can see he is not welcome. However, he doesn't care because the prices on beer (oil) are in line with his budget. So in order to gain a foothold there, he attempts to befriend an influential red-neck (Israel, Saudi Arabia). He buys him a few beers and asks lots of questions and as time goes by, is given permission to come back. However, he is warned that he may want to keep a low profile. Red-necks don't really like his type.

Mr. Wall Street continues to come back, knowing he is not welcome. After a while, he brings others and starts talking about investing in the bar. Before long, the place is crawling with men in suits and ties. The locals are restless and worry that their territory and their way of life is under attack by others who have no regard for them and only care about their own agenda.

This goes on for a few months until one night when the suits come in to see that the price of beer has gone up sharply. Annoyed, the men cause a scene and demand that the prices be put back to where they were before. "This is our place now. We call the shots!", one of them exclaims. Just as he says this, a giant explosion from the parking lot shakes the bar. The suits run outside to see their brand new BMW's and Mercedes' consumed by flames and some of the other suits have been injured in the blast. One of them actually dies. The locals have had enough and, right or wrong, have sent a clear message telling the suits to stay away.

Would you go back in, or realize this was never your's in the first place, count your losses and go where you welcome?

Maybe it's time we take a long look at what we have done in the past and ask ourselves an important question - are we willing to die for cheap beer?

PC

Economic interests have always, I repeat always, played a role in international policy. The oil argument was interesting in the Persian Gulf war, using it now seems somewhat trite.

Bin Laden certainly didnt seem to get upset when we were funding his efforts against the Soviets.

It almost seems to me that you are suggesting September 11th was convenient to our oil interests?

While I do not disagree that we have upset people in the Middle East because of our dominance and mingling, sustaining ourselves as a premier world power requires that we have a measure of control over Global resources. Bin Laden is obviously upset about historical grievances, however he is also a businessman that has a vast network of economic interests in a number of different countries through which, and by which he has manipulated their political systems to achieve his own interests. His inheritance was only a paltry 300 million. I feel really bad that his beer prices went up, and understand how Bin Robin Hood is really just pillaging the rich to give to the poor...but I have a hard time stomaching the 6500 people he happened to kill after he took their purses.

Incidentally we are funding the Northern Alliance to achieve our ends... which means little loss of American lives to date.

Now you can call me the black pot, because the word choice in this response mimics, to a degree, your writing style...though I havent developed, nor care to develop, your mastery of hyperboles.

You poor thing. You should travel some time.

While I am American, and proud to say so, I don't mind admitting that we (as a country) have been bullying people around for quite some time now. The fact is Carl, that you seem to think we are entitled to assert our dominance to gain "a measure of control over global resources." The key word in your quote is "global". Not American resources. The mentality to which you subscribe is exactly what fosters anti-American sentiment throughout the world. Granted, it's easy for you to be such a blind nationalist from the comfort of Boise. I understand that because I was in the same boat once, but now I live in a place where we are tolerated, but not necessarily embraced. It's been a real eye-opener. Sit down with an Arab some time and have a chat with them. I have. Until you get a perspective from someone who has seen our arrogance first-hand, you will continue to think the way you do. I know none of this will sway your opinion. I personally don't think you are capable of seeing things any other way than your own.

Now, with regards to the little story you enjoyed so much...

Carl, do your reading. After the gulf war, we maintained a presence in Saudi Arabia - a military presence, more specifically. This presence was to inspire the beginning of the Al Qaeda. After the war, we left some things in Saudi Arabia (planes, guns, personnel...) This greatly angered Osama Bin Laden and that's when he disowned his family and country to go to Afghanistan permanently. Of course he did take what he thought he was entitled to ($250,000,000) as would anyone who knew they could. Since then, he has been training warriors to fight for his cause.

I'm not saying we got what we deserved in NYC and DC. Absolutely not. But there is a whole world of people out there who don't think we are so wonderful or entitled to these global resources that you seem to think we are responsible for controlling. The point I was trying to make was that if you push everyone long enough, eventually someone will push back. I only ask that we all take a look ourselves as a country and the way we are perceived in the rest of the world. I personally would rather get along with everyone and not have control over everything. You probably think that makes me a patsy. Fine, so be it. You go on and keep walking through life with your eyes and ears shut. Personally, I'd like to learn something from as many different people as I can while I'm alive. But, if I ever thought that I could offer you a perspective from someone who has taken the time to learn from the source, I can see I'm wasting my time.

Best of luck in your quest for more quotes from dead people you agree with.

PC

What makes you think I live in Idaho?

I find it intriguing that you assume all these things about my beliefs political stance, and cloistered life.

I must present a classic case of blind loyalist of a provincial town as Belle from Beauty in the Beast characterized it. She wasnt dead per se, she never really lived unless you count the artist that drew her and the writer that attached words to her?

Obviously you have a wide difference of experiences and opinions than I do, you live a completely different life. You have travelled beyond the American bubble and found that many people not only dislike us, but foster ill will, and hide really sharp needles under their pillows at night.

I admire you for suffering your heritage it must be grueling work.

I think your ideas are valuable especially to someone that must survive in a culturally intolerant society. Arrogance indeed. Christine suggested that I research more, perhaps at this stage I ought to, and yet, it would only be to continue responding here which in the grand scheme doesnt seem too productive.

I must say the mental joust was amusing. For the most part I really wasnt interested in positing the correct, accurate, or true opinion on this site, mostly just sharing the ideas I have collected over the years...many of course incubated in dead text as you point out.

I encourage you to find a different line of work...you are stifling your "voice" in your present occupation and possibly seeking enough encouragement to do what you really love.

Carl

Don't freaking tell me that one of you HATES them and one of you LOVES them. I can't bear the verbal spars.

PC - you still are my hero. You make the most sense.

CH - who the heck are you?

Hell, did the US know these attacks were gonna happen and let them slide so we would have good reason to go take care of the Taliban??? Wouldn't surprise me.

No reason to get all uptight. We are human beings, we have been killing eachother since we spliced away from Sasquatch...

What's the big deal? Like the morning paper, it's all part of living on earth as a human... a little killing here... a little killing there...

My perception of the US is that we are not someone you want to war with... and the Taliban is finding this out...

I love that survival of the fittest has reared it's ugly head within the Human Population... You know what that means... War...

and as unnaturally as we all want it to be... Naturallly the Taliban, and their primitive beliefs will be selected to cease to exist...

You don't see zebras attacking lions on the African plains... smart animal...

Taliban = dumb animal...

Bin Laden per this website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_155000/155236.stm

"While in Afghanistan, he founded the Maktab al-Khidimat (MAK), which recruited fighters from around the world and imported equipment to aid the Afghan resistance against the Soviet army."

"After the Soviet withdrawal, the "Arab Afghans", as Bin Laden's faction came to be called, turned their fire against the US and its allies in the Middle East.

PC, kind of looks like Bin Laden founded the terrorist organization which would become Al Qaeda during the period of time we were aiding and training him...interesting.

"Bin Laden returned to Saudi Arabia to work in the family construction business, but was expelled in 1991 because of his anti-government activities there."

Gee PC looks like Bin Laden left Afghanistan against his will BEFORE the gulf war...hmmm...which would mean that the Gulf war didnt inspire the Al Qaeda because it was already alive and well.

Perhaps he became enraged WHEN America took on Iraq, but, hey, I guess we should have just let Saddam take Kuate, why not...I mean, its only oil, and we just want to get along...minor point that a kazillion dollars of capital from selling oil to the world can be used for things like supporting Terrorist organizations pent on destroying the US. But PC is right, we should be focused on befriending these people because I am CERTAIN they have our best interest at heart.

I guess what I am trying to say is that you not only hyperbolize, but you are full of sh#$%#@$ on your facts too.

But at least you have a Bubb supporting you.

Bin Laden was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1991 because of his anti-government activities. He eventually wound up in Sudan, where he worked with Egyptian radical groups in exile.

--I researched further. PC was right regarding Bin Laden and his departure from Saudia, and a posteriori correct on the inspiration of the Al Qaeda. I retract the comment about his facts being b.s., however I still support the US intervention with Iraq, and believe that "getting along" is not possible or plausible given the competing interests of world governments, especially when economically concentrated.

It's pretty scarry to see the mentality that seems to dominate the Alumknight teem. I hope this thread is not a true cross section of the product of Bishop Kelly

Carl, thanks for the memories. It's been fun sparring with you. As for the rest of you, please think about the price of this war and if it's all worth it. That's it.

PC

Chalking all of this up to social Darwinism is completely ludicrous and irresponsible. The fact is, we picked on the fat kid and the fat kid finally got tired of it and struck back. I do not (as I have stated before) condone or support the acts of the Al Qaeda or the Taliban. However, when something as brutal as Sept 11 happens, the initial reaction is, of course, retaliation. Once that subsides, we should all take pause to understand WHY it may have happened in the first place. Remember - they think differently than we do and it takes time and effort to understand it. But that understanding could be the means by which we ensure that NYC and DC never happens again.

Fix problems not by force, but rather through a greater understanding of mankind and an appreciation for the differences that make us unique.

By the way, AAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!! (followed by eggs falling on sidewalk).

PC

Incidentally, PC, I enjoyed the joust as well, and I guess I better appologize to Christine before she implements operation annilate hays.

Let me explain:

Back at BK, class of 92', I spent a great deal of time taking on liberals with Matt Neznanski, I went on to co-found the Young Republicans in college (big surprise), double majored in Philosophy (my driving force) and Pre-law and I guess I never lost the impulse to butt heads with them.

Christine I am sorry for offending you and your family name.

I was kind of a bastard that way in college too. Now I am in sales and marketing...how ironic, so I have to kiss ass all the time and it is refreshing, what I really mean is, mandatory to share my real opinions now and again.

I do not take these comments personally, they are simply Dialectic, or Hegelian discussions with flavor and flare.

Onward and forward Backwards and torwards On and around, Until it is found, The Truth, on solid ground. CDH III

I hope everything is well...

and if you remember correctly - you always picked on me (the fat kid) in the halls...

All the rides from track practice in the bug... screaming at the innocent...

When you come home, call me...

First, a little about me. I, like Carl, am a member of the Class of '92. Back then and in college, my view of the world was liberal. We should help the people of the world, the Gulf War was fought over oil and money, blah blah blah. In fact, I think I became the polar opposite of Carl. President of College Democrats and involved in the Clinton-Gore Campaign in '96.

But after going to law school and working, I began to realize how the world works and it is not always how you want it to be. And sometimes, how you want to the world to be just isn't the right thing.

Was the Gulf War about oil? Yes. If we didn't stop Hussein, we would be paying $10.00/gallon for gas. If we could get it. Saddam would have marched into Saudi Arabia and taken a majority of the world's oil reserves hostage. Our economy as we know it would come to a grinding halt and we would be a depression to rival the Great Depression.

About dealing with OBL and al Queda? Get rid of them as quickly as possible. What we are doing is the best possible solution we have right now. Should we extend the 'War on Terrorism' to other countries? Yes. If we don't get rid of it now, it will rear its ugly head again and cause more innocent deaths.

Policy toward Israel? It needs to change, but not right now. Now is the time to act on terrorism. Worry about policy changes later.

And not to think I am some warmonger, my brother (Bill Clark -- Class of '88) is a Naval Officer and could be sent if needed to the Gulf. Lord knows I don't want him in harms way but if he is called, I will be all the more proud of him. And my brother in law is a Marine Corp Officer who has just been called out of the country for an unlimited amount of time to an unknown destination. I don't harm to fall to him or any member of the Armed Forces, but they and we have a job to do. America was attacked and now is the time to strike and destroy our enemies.

So you've been to Penang? Wow, you're so in touch with other cultures! You've been to a huge tourist trap and walked hand-in-hand with other westerers, blind to the fact that you don't give a shit about anybody but yourself. I'm so impressed. I'm in such awe. I know you can't see this right now, but I'm bowing to you.

You self-rightoeus asshole. "...it's what Superpowers should do..." I have to tell you, I'm in mood for tact right now, so I don't mind you that you are a gutless moron who doesn't know what the fuck you're talking about. I've explained the state of middle east countless times already. If you choose not to accept it, fine. But as far as I'm concerned, you don't have the right to post anything until your balls drop, your voice changes and you have the shread of courage it requires to POST YOUR FUCKING NAME! And another thing, China could squash the US like a grape in the blink of an eye. Our military has nothing to do with "keeping them in check" as you say. It's money, you half-wit. Must be nice to sit in the US and bitch about other countries (especially when you have no clue as to what you're talking about). By the way, "grown-up big boys" sign their posts, like me.

Piss off,

PC

"Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's going to do it? You? You Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the Afghanis and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That their death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, SAVES LIVES. You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about about parties, you WANT me on that wall, you NEED me on that wall." (continued on next post)

To all the BK Family, hope all is well. --Eric.

By the way, just read an article by an Afghani that is extremely interesting in light of much posted here. If I can get the time to translate it, I'll post a copy or a link to it. On second thought, if you're interested in it, email me...otherwise I could use the time to get other work done.

or maybe do some wallsits???

Don

Hey I hear al-Zarqawi is hiring. And by the way, don't worry about those American guys in the sand camo uniforms. There real friendly to your type...